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Difference between 3 pin idle and 2 pin idle valve?

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  • Difference between 3 pin idle and 2 pin idle valve?

    Hi,

    Are there any pro's and con's?
    I'm sick of big cams and cold start.
    I want to turn the key and let the engine fire up without me playing with the pedal.

    I have the option of buying a 3 pin or 2 pin idle controller.
    Any difference?

    I believe 3 pin =
    1. Gnd
    2. +12v ign
    3. Idle sig???

    I believe 2 pin =
    1. q+12v ign
    2. Idle sig.

    Any info appreciated.
    Last edited by bazeng; July 27th, 2014, 03:09 PM.
    Mitsubishi Galant VR4. SM4 1.09. T51R SPL E85. Motec SDL. 425kw at 4. 10.93@135mph.
    Mitsubishi Galant AMG. Evo IX SM4 1.07. Gt30r 98Ron. Auto. Street car.
    ​​​​

  • #2
    I prefer the 3-pin that controls in "both" directions. The 2-pin is returned mostly by a spring.

    The 3-pin I have used has 12 volt in middle pin, and needs pwm ground on the outer pins to move the valve in that direction.
    Robert Jansson
    MRM-Racing

    Comment


    • #3
      Hello Bazeng,

      I had assumed since you were on a Mitsubishi platform you would have been using a stepper motor, however I suppose we are discussing a different engine platform altogether? Anyway, to add to what Robert has posted the size of the valve (air allowed to by pass) as well as the location of the valve itself may also factor into it's effectiveness.

      Since the focus has been on start up, what sort of manifold vacuum are you able to achieve during the cranking procedure, perhaps how long the cracking procedure lasts on start up as well as how much vacuum the engine can achieve at idle will help us appreciate how significant your scenario is.

      Cheers!
      Damien King
      Technical Analyst/Engine Management Calibrator
      Stephen's Automotive Research & Development Engineering

      Comment


      • #4
        So a 3 pin will require which pins or outputs to be utilised?
        I am limited with my current sm4.


        I'll check my logs and confirm vac and advise.
        Mitsubishi Galant VR4. SM4 1.09. T51R SPL E85. Motec SDL. 425kw at 4. 10.93@135mph.
        Mitsubishi Galant AMG. Evo IX SM4 1.07. Gt30r 98Ron. Auto. Street car.
        ​​​​

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by bazeng View Post
          So a 3 pin will require which pins or outputs to be utilised?
          I am limited with my current sm4.


          I'll check my logs and confirm vac and advise.
          A Bosch 3-pin require two outputs. Normally you use a H-bridge. If you got only one spare O/P use a 2-pin. Else you must make yourself a external H-bridge.

          I am only focusing on electrical connection here and there are many more aspects as Sarde wrote.
          Robert Jansson
          MRM-Racing

          Comment


          • #6
            Hi Guys,

            I've got a log on the other computer, I'll find out what vac I pull during idle and advise shortly. How does this affect idle?

            Also, my available outputs are;
            Output 1
            Output 2
            Output 3
            Output 4
            Output inj 5

            Are these sufficient outputs to run the 3 wire idle valves?

            Thanks.
            Mitsubishi Galant VR4. SM4 1.09. T51R SPL E85. Motec SDL. 425kw at 4. 10.93@135mph.
            Mitsubishi Galant AMG. Evo IX SM4 1.07. Gt30r 98Ron. Auto. Street car.
            ​​​​

            Comment


            • #7
              Good day Bazeng,

              If you're using a 3 wire type valve as Robert highlighted then two available outputs from the output pool of 1 through 4 can work as they support H bridge and a PWM range of 10 to 500 hertz according to the SM4 manual. So from what you have listed to be available with respect to available outputs you should be okay.

              With respect to the actual idle issue, what happening is that the valve actuation relative to manifold pressure and engine speed isn't allowing for the air needed to support the desired idle. Most basic forced induction applications, think OEM state, will idle with a manifold pressure (vacuum) of 20mmHg. This couples together with relatively mild cam profiles will have enough air flow and air velocity to support idle situations at an engine speed of 800 to 1000 rpm.

              On a side note, the air flow in question is usually enough to keep the injector out of non-linear operating ranges on OEM (small) injectors. This is often over looked in my experience so I just thought I would mention it in passing. I figured that you may have seen or experienced lambda values at idle which can be considered rich. If the fuel system has been setup stable enough then the rich lambda value won't really affect the idle quality, however, if unaware of what's happening and a lambda value of 1 is targeted then the idle quality may suffer. This is partly due to the fact that the injector may be operating in a non-linear fashion, assuming that the injectors are relatively large to support fuel flow for engine with very high horsepower.

              I hope the added information has helped give additional insight into your described scenario.

              Cheers!
              Damien King
              Technical Analyst/Engine Management Calibrator
              Stephen's Automotive Research & Development Engineering

              Comment


              • #8
                Hi Damien,

                Please find attached IDLE LOG and CAL file.
                I managed to get it to idle better by:
                1. adjusting the WU settings
                2. adjusting the base fuel values (decreased)

                I still have warm start issues.
                I've updated my CAL with new settings (yet to try AUG_18). I'm hoping the PS settings are better and my warm start actually works.

                One thing I've noticed.
                My based fuel values are quite low at idle. Should I be aiming for 80's (do i increase my fuel multiplier?).

                The rest of the map is OK. I made 390kw's at four wheels with this CAL. I'm hoping to run the car again by the end of the month down the 1/4.

                Any feedback appreciated.
                Attached Files
                Mitsubishi Galant VR4. SM4 1.09. T51R SPL E85. Motec SDL. 425kw at 4. 10.93@135mph.
                Mitsubishi Galant AMG. Evo IX SM4 1.07. Gt30r 98Ron. Auto. Street car.
                ​​​​

                Comment


                • #9
                  Bazeng,

                  My apologies for the late response. I was able to review your log file as well as your cal file and found some interesting things that stood out. I just have a couple questions for you.

                  - what fuel are you using?
                  - what's the displacement on the engine in question?
                  - what lambda meter are you using?

                  Since the area of interest within the cal file is the idle I didn't pay much attention to unrelated areas. I got a fuel cal multiplier of 2.028 based on the engine having a displacement of 2000cc and the injectors selected in the cal delivering a fuel flow of 2000cc per minute at a base pressure (differential fuel pressure) of 43.5 PSI. I suppose your entry of 2.1 isn't far off, however, the fuel model depends heavily on this value being accurate and precise. Mind you, this isn't a value which should be adjusted as you have asked. It should be calculated based on the details of your setup, if any of the relevant parameters within your setup change then you should re-calculate the fuel cal multiplier accordingly. An example will be a change in engine displacement, a change injector size or injector flow due to a change in base fuel pressure/differential fuel pressure.

                  I was hoping to see a log from a much colder start up with active view of the warm up enrichment values, with the log starting at a coolant temperature of 60 degree I wasn't able to see a whole lot. Your WU enrichment mul as well as you PS enrichment mul both have no effect past the temperature of 60 degree C engine temperature. Also the PS fast idle has a value of 0 throughout the table which means it's not functioning at all. These setting aren't really a huge deal when it comes to engine performance (ultimate/peak horsepower) but they are little details which can make the engine a little more tolerable at cold coolant temperatures and low engine speeds.

                  The trick with warm up is to allow the engine to get up to normal operating temperature as quickly as possible, an IAC value makes life easier as it allows more air to enter the engine and therefore more fuel can be added to generate the heat energy needed to bring the temperature of the engine up. For engines that don't have an IAC valve then overly rich mixtures are used to generate added heat to bring an engine up to operational temperature. As the engine temperature goes up the mixtures become less rich, until the engine finally comes up to operation temperature then the warm up and the post start enrichments go to value of 1 and the ECU doesn't add a multiplier value to the base fuel delivery values. At this point the engine should be at the desired lambda value for idle. If you change the base fuel delivery values to adjust the lambda value at idle you are effectively dictating an incorrect VE for the engine for which the ECU is now trying to deliver matching fuel. This may lead to some problems upon initial move off from a standstill or an awkward stumble from the engine as the clutch is engaged. I would make a suggestion to use the WU enrichment mul, the PS enrichment mul as well as the PS fast idle to address your warm up issue first before the installation of an IAC valve.

                  Your lambda values at idle seemed quite lean, especially for the injectors selected. The Injector Dynamics ID2000 has a minimum pulse width of 1.3 to 1.4 milliseconds before it starts to enter a non-linear mode of operation. In your log file the inj. time MEAN was at a steady 0.7+ mSec when no throttle input was given, this isn't a good scenario at all. Try shooting for a lambda value of 0.85 (AFR 12.5:1) when the engine has fully warmed up to operational temperature and let me know what you feedback is on the idle. I don't know what the exact value would be in the base fuel delivery table, however, you should end up at a value of either 61 or 62 :-) When you make the adjustments please log the lambda value achieved, the inj. time MEAN, the manifold pressure, coolant temperature and engine speed; there should be a fair difference. If all goes according to plan you should have made a significant change to the steep gradient off idle in the base fuel delivery table, and the engine speed at idle should be a little more pleasant as 1200+ was a little bit on the high side for a street driven car.

                  My advisory here is that an IAC valve will make life at idle much more manageable, however, there a couple changes you can make which may bring your close to the desired end result. The engine speed seemed to have noticeable oscillations, and I think may have been a result of the lean mixtures at idle coupled together with non-linear operation of the injectors. With those injectors operating on assumed engine displacement of 2000cc and manifold pressure of 77 Kpa, the advised lambda value of 0.85 to 0.82 (AFR 12.5:1 to 12.0:1) should offer some stability with respect to engine speed at idle. Also, what is the filtration (micron) rating of the fuel filter you have in place between the fuel pumps and the injectors? I’ve seen some pretty drastic deviation to injector pulse widths when they become dirty over time. I’m not saying that this is the case but from my experience it’s usually something worth the while looking into if the correct filtration isn’t employed.

                  Sorry for the long winded response, but I tried to cover as much as I could based on what I thought was relevant. Please feel free to respond accordingly with follow up posts and I will try to answer in an appropriate and productive manner (much more timely as well).

                  Cheers!
                  Damien King
                  Technical Analyst/Engine Management Calibrator
                  Stephen's Automotive Research & Development Engineering

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    With regard to the 3 wire idle valve I have found superior idle control using anti-phase drive technique,rather than H-bridge
                    He gets his lap dogs to do his talking for him. Buzzard is a good example.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Hi Chris, how does that work?

                      I played around with the car today with the advice from Damien and Danny and it fires much quicker now.

                      Now. I just need to buy the correct idle valve from the wreckers and install...
                      Mitsubishi Galant VR4. SM4 1.09. T51R SPL E85. Motec SDL. 425kw at 4. 10.93@135mph.
                      Mitsubishi Galant AMG. Evo IX SM4 1.07. Gt30r 98Ron. Auto. Street car.
                      ​​​​

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        That is configured using a sfwout and two gpc tables to the relevant outputs. I found it improved the idle stability on a BMW E36 M3 markedly (big cams), and Ian and I have discussed this at some length.
                        He gets his lap dogs to do his talking for him. Buzzard is a good example.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Any chance of getting an example cal?

                          I'm going to pull the intake manifold off and prepare for the valve install.
                          It is funny how idle can make or break the perception of a cars tune/performance.
                          Mitsubishi Galant VR4. SM4 1.09. T51R SPL E85. Motec SDL. 425kw at 4. 10.93@135mph.
                          Mitsubishi Galant AMG. Evo IX SM4 1.07. Gt30r 98Ron. Auto. Street car.
                          ​​​​

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Hi Guys,

                            So I purchased a 3 pin idle valve:

                            Bosch 0280140524.
                            From a BMW E34.



                            Can anybody assist with the pin outs?
                            Mitsubishi Galant VR4. SM4 1.09. T51R SPL E85. Motec SDL. 425kw at 4. 10.93@135mph.
                            Mitsubishi Galant AMG. Evo IX SM4 1.07. Gt30r 98Ron. Auto. Street car.
                            ​​​​

                            Comment

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