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  • #16
    No worries Linus, I really hope things go well for you and that you are happy with the Autronic brand.

    Cheers Linus!
    Damien King
    Technical Analyst/Engine Management Calibrator
    Stephen's Automotive Research & Development Engineering

    Comment


    • #17
      Autronic SMC from at least firmware 1.10 can use standard Bosch NTC 2500 ohms at 20 degrees C sensor. Requires mode flag change and hardware modification which is addition of link on a resistor. Later ecu's have a jumper link that is simple to add or remove.

      However it should be noted that many NTC sensor designs cannot match the very fast Autronic sensor, their thermal time constants are often considerably slower.
      He gets his lap dogs to do his talking for him. Buzzard is a good example.

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      • #18
        Thank you kindly for the clarification Chris.

        I was unaware of the confirmed details surrounding the use of the NTC sensor.
        Damien King
        Technical Analyst/Engine Management Calibrator
        Stephen's Automotive Research & Development Engineering

        Comment


        • #19
          hello guys, still a bit stuck on the ignition issue...

          As you guys described the SMC need some kind of CDI box. I´ve tried to solder my own circuit to boost the signal so they can drive the VAG coils but with no succes..

          but i found this; http://www.shoeys.com/docs/Bosch_008.pdf
          could that work or will it fry my coils?

          Sorry for all the stupid questions. I am a little bit short on cash, so im trying to solve this as cheaply as possible. therefore the soldering and experementing

          Do you guys any good solutions?

          //Linus

          Comment


          • #20
            Good day Linus,

            From reading your post it would appear that there’s still some misunderstanding surrounding the ignition solutions which the SMC can support. You really only have two clear options of what is possible. If the SMC box doesn’t have a dwell board fitted, which I am assuming is the case for you, the output signal coming from the ignition channel will have to be sent to a CDI box and the CDI box will in turn drive the ignition coils (READ: you are not to use coils with internal ignitors in a CDI solution). You must remember that the signals coming from the SMC ignition channels are ignition pulses, if these signals are observed with a DVOM or an oscilloscope it will be normal to see that it isn’t the sort of signals which can operate a coil; ignition systems will not function in the manner. There are a number of CDI boxes which can be purchased new as well as used. A few of the common (popular) ones are the MDS DIS-2 and MSD DIS-4. The best suited model depends on how many coils you are looking to support as well as how many ignition channels you are working with. Autronic offers the 500R which can be considered a little on the expensive but it is highly reliable and super-efficient. M&W makes quite a few models you can choose from, such as the Pro10, Pro12 and Pro14 (single coil, two coil and 4 coil support respectively) all the way through to the high end Pro DRAG series. These are the brands and models I would advise based on my own working experience. I will agree that they’re not cheap but such is the nature of your options based on the model ECU you have chosen. What I can tell you is that there are usually decent deals available in the Buy & Sell section of the forum. Some of the sellers may even be able to guide you with some basic instructions as to how they were using the units from an installation perspective so that you might be able to replicate it on your own.

            Okay, that was the CDI solution. For non-CDI solutions your options are quite limited. The SMC can be fitted with a dwell board thereby making allowances for the output signal to now have dwell instructions as well as ignition pulse data. The alternative to CDI would be IDI, and for IDI solutions an ignitor must be fitted to the ignition circuit. The ignitor will prevent (guard) the fly-back coming of a collapsed coil (inductive process) from the ECU. So for an IDI solution it is most likely that you will need to fit a dwell board to the ECU and install an ignitor between the coil and the ECU. Please note that the ignitor must match the coil being used and by that I mean they must be compatible. One of the tasks an ignitor undertakes is preventing the damaging effects of coil saturation by using a maximum dwell fail-safe. Excessive or damaging coil saturation is whereby the coil is left in a charging state too long relative to supply voltage and engine speed allowing the coil to suffer severe thermal abuse. Having said this, there is an instance where you may use the SMC in an IDI strategy without fitting a dwell board. If you read through the SMC manual, there are a few illustrations showing the Bosch 227 022 008 ignitor module being used to accept ignition pulse signals directly from the SMC and controlling dumb coils (two terminal/pin coils). In this case, the very specific Bosch ignitor module provides the dwell instructions used to operate the coil in addition to guarding (protecting) the SMC against the fly-back of the inductive coil being used. The trouble with this scenario is that the specific Bosch module noted isn’t in production today and so they can’t be purchased new. Finding these modules can be a huge task by itself and most users shy away from this. Please note that the specific Bosch module in question can only support a single coil, you will as many Bosch modules as they are coils present in your ignition solution.

            What you also have to keep in mind is that the dwell control of the Bosch module can limit the coil selection you have at your disposal based on the fact that the dwell is fixed and can’t be manually adjusted to suit the efficiency of the coil’s internal wound configuration. This brings me to the core question which should be considered before any ignition solution is derived, what are the spark energy needs? If you can answer this question definitely then your available options, budget or extravagant can be realized very early in a clear manner. The coils being used for a CDI solution differ (READ: not incompatible) from those which will be used in an IDI solution. In an IDI solution the amount of available spark energy is dependent on the primary and secondary wound configuration within the coil(s). The configuration of these wounds will dictate (relative to dwell instructions used) how much spark energy the spark plug sees, it does this by way of the inductive process. If you are unclear on the inductive process please indicate this. However, with a CDI solution, the spark energy is dependent on the capacitor configuration within the CDI box itself as well as the primary voltage supply and less dependent on the coils as the coils operate more like a pulse transformers rather than an energy storage medium as it does in an IDI solution. If you can take something away from reading this I would hope that it is the understanding that ignition solutions, be it CDI or IDI, need to be configured correctly to ensure consistent reliable performance with very little to no failure related instances.

            In hindsight, I forgot to mention that if a dwell board is fitted there are a couple OEM ignitor and coil combinations which will work great. A good example would be the OEM setup on the 4G63 found in the Mitsubishi Evo 1, 2 or 3 (USDM/DSM Mitsubishi Eclipse Gen 1 and Gen2) as well as the Coil on plug and coil pack setup on the Subaru WRX STI version 1, 2, 3, 4 and 5 I believe. I am not familiar with the VAG coils you mentioned but from what little reading I’ve done online about it, it would appear that these coils have internal ignitors and as such they are not suitable for direct used with the SMC. Non-ignitor integrated coils (dumb coils/coils with two pins only) work best with the appropriate CDI or IDI solutions supported by the SMC. If you would like to use coils with the ignitor integrated then your best option would be a SM3 or SM4. Quite frankly, and I mean no disrespect here, it sounds as though you may have been much better off should you have chosen to purchase a used SM3 or SM4. Again, some of the early variant of the SM3 and SM4 can be found on the Buy & Sell section of the forum for prices which are extremely feasible more often than not. Although the SMC can be purchased at very low prices in comparison, the additional items needed to make a complete functional system out of them would often rival the price of a used SM4 or SM3 from the very early generation. Believe me when I tell you this as I am speaking from experience!

            Once again, I really hope you are back on track now. However, should anything be unclear or if there’s any doubt about what you are doing please feel free to respond accordingly with a follow up post and I will try to assist as best as I can. No worries with the many follow up questions; none of them are stupid by the way. I will be hoping that I may be able to answer your questions in a much more productive manner. The ideal scenario would be for you to have your nearest Autronic dealer support you in an arrangement which is mutually acceptable, however, at times the ideal can’t be accomplished due to circumstances.

            Cheers Linus!
            Damien King
            Technical Analyst/Engine Management Calibrator
            Stephen's Automotive Research & Development Engineering

            Comment


            • #21
              The 008 has active dwell control and is suitable for many coils. It is not possible to use 4 channels with 008, as they will run in start up dwell mode at idle and usually burns out the coils. It is possible to use two ignition outputs to drive four 008 and this will work with good success.


              Availability of the 008 is becoming limited as I believe Bosch has stopped production.

              Some two channel cdi's may drive two coils per channel, it is a question of each coils own mutual inductance.

              Dwell board option may be dependent on ecu serial #. Early ecu's require a wire in dwell board, later have a plug in board. I believe the wire in service is no longer available.
              He gets his lap dogs to do his talking for him. Buzzard is a good example.

              Comment

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